Episode 9: Mannequin minority blues — The psychological well being penalties of being a mannequin citizen
NOTE: Transcripts could comprise errors. Please verify the corresponding audio earlier than quoting in print.
Vinita Srivastava (VS): From The Dialog, that is Don’t Name Me Resilient, I’m Vinita Srivastava.
Maneet Chahal (MC): All of us have self-stigma to psychological well being. If tomorrow we’re emotionally challenged, we’re going to marvel: What’s flawed with me? Why is that this taking place to me?
VS: It has been a tricky yr. Now we have all struggled and our collective psychological well being has taken an actual hit. However in response to a latest Stats Canada report, South Asians have taken a fair larger hit, reporting decrease ranges of psychological well being than every other Canadians in the course of the pandemic. In the present day, we’re going to speak about a few of the explanation why, together with the strain of needing to be a mannequin minority. That’s the concept that Asian immigrants maintain their heads down. They don’t rock the boat. They’re profitable and so they prosper. Properly, these concepts are principally myths. And people myths could cause every kind of issues. Largely, it forces individuals to internalize their psychological anguish and it may find yourself leaving gaps in our psychological well being companies. My company at this time are intimately linked to the state of affairs. Satwinder Bains is an affiliate professor and director of the South Asian Research Institute on the College of the Fraser Valley. Her analysis focuses on entry to psychological well being assist in South Asian communities and the consequences of migration and social isolation on psychological well being. And Maneet Chahal is co-founder of Soch Psychological Well being, which inspires higher entry to psychological well being assist in Canada’s South Asian communities. Thanks each for becoming a member of me.
Satwinder Bains (SB): Thanks, Vinita, for having us right here at this time with you.
VS: Maneet, because the co-founder of Soch Psychological Well being, your work with the South Asian group has actually stored you near the problems. And I’m questioning what sorts of developments you’ve been seeing.
MC: I don’t assume it’s any shock that South Asians had been as onerous hit as they had been. This has been taking place a very long time earlier than the pandemic. And it’s actually unhappy if you assume that since you don’t know your atmosphere, you haven’t acclimated to the tradition round you, that that’s a drawback to your expertise, your psychological well being narrative, basically. We take a look at mainstream methods, mainstream psychological well being companies which can be catered in a method, for these which can be educated, which can be literate, which can be English-speaking, predominantly from a white background is what you see. So, South Asians we’re battling despair, with anxiousness, with out even realizing it’s despair and anxiousness. I believe that makes it much more difficult if you’re navigating one thing associated to your psychological well being in the dead of night since you don’t affiliate it to be an issue or for it to be even acknowledged as one thing that may be addressed or you will get assist for.
VS: So there’s a couple of issues that you simply’re mentioning there. One is this concept of tradition and the way essential it’s by way of getting the sorts of assist that it is advisable consider that tradition or somebody’s tradition, and the place that they’re coming from is essential if you’re speaking about their psychological well being. However you’re additionally saying that this concept that the pandemic has exacerbated current psychological well being points, I believe that’s what you’re saying, is that it’s not the pandemic essentially. It’s simply the pandemic that highlighted current psychological well being points. However I’m questioning particularly if issues bought worse in the course of the pandemic?
MC: Yeah, issues undoubtedly bought worse in the course of the pandemic. And I believe the explanation why Soch began is as a result of lots of people, a majority of their life, will in all probability go falling via the cracks of the psychological well being system. They’ll by no means get picked up. They received’t even know they lived their total life having a psychological well being concern. So a few of these issues which can be exacerbated throughout COVID in relation to psychological well being are despair, anxiousness, suicide, addictions. Addictions is a big subject in our South Asian group. Particularly talking to the South Asian Punjabi group. And ingesting is a No. 1 inquiry we truly get at Soch, the place involved family members are reaching out as a result of a liked one is ingesting and so they don’t know methods to navigate and assist them.
VS: Satwinder, you’ve been researching South Asian communities for years, why do you assume a few of these communities have been so onerous hit in the course of the pandemic? The South Asian communities that we’re speaking about?
SB: I really feel that in B.C. there was an explosion by way of an understanding of the vulnerabilities of ethnic communities via COVID. And partly it’s been due to the difficulty of racism. I perceive tradition as being a really important level by way of understanding psychological well being and wellness and ensuring that practitioners take that under consideration. However to sort of say that it’s due to tradition can be a bit not warranted as a result of generally it’s not the tradition that’s at fault is definitely the entire society that’s at fault, that hasn’t actually understood their wants. And I believe the great factor from the pandemic has been that there was a very brilliant mild shone on the vulnerability of ethnic communities, and so they’re beginning to be a better understanding on the larger stage of presidency to indicate a deeper understanding of the wants of those communities as taxpayers, as residents, as kids born right here, not as put to the facet sorts of teams, however actually combine their designs so all people’s wants get met, the wants don’t get met. After which what you say is, nicely, these individuals don’t know what they’re doing. It’s their drawback. They stay in prolonged household methods. They’re spreading the illness. With out understanding what’s going on behind it. Our group is matured and advanced from the ‘70s onwards. Even I’d say, not hiding our psychological well being points, however coming ahead with them. There was a shift and I believe that shift has helped.
VS: Let’s discuss that shift for a minute. Everyone knows that this isn’t a brand new subject. I imply, as you stated, it’s been occurring for the reason that ’70s. Within the ’70s, one of many larger reported suicide charges in Canada was for South Asian girls. And plenty of within the South Asian communities have struggled quietly with psychological well being for years. I suppose what you’re saying is definitely it has modified for the reason that ’70s, which could be very hopeful, however it’s an ongoing subject. So, what are a few of the causes that, , South Asian communities have struggled quietly? What are a few of these points at play there?
SB: In B.C. we have now some very distinctive points. Now we have, though 100 yr plus historical past of South Asian Canadians residing on this province, we nonetheless have a really massive inflow of newly arriving immigrants. The newer immigrants, as they arrive and proceed to deliver conventional methods of coping with conditions. Certainly one of them is look throughout the household. Don’t put this out. Don’t let different individuals know there’s psychological well being points within the household, as a result of the sense of this collective id, that we are going to all be tarnished with this brush. And as , within the South Asian group the household is sacrosanct. It’s the cornerstone of every little thing we do. And folks will sacrifice the person for the household. And sadly, that does occur with psychological well being, that we have a tendency to not get the sorts of assist we want for the person pondering that the bigger group, the collective household, is the assist the particular person wants. As Maneet stated generally that assist is true and generally it isn’t. So partly it’s been that we’re not having access to the companies we want. One: the companies aren’t there. Two: in the event that they had been there, we’re not accessing them. Three: there may be nonetheless a lot of stigma and the stigma continues. Even with COVID, there was stigma. And Vinita I need to say that we not can see ourselves as a homogenous group. We are able to’t say all South Asian Canadians take care of — each group has cohorts of folks that take care of issues otherwise. So we additionally must have the variety of entry choices for all of us as nicely. And I believe that’s not taking place. And to a point, we’re seen as homogenous.
VS: The South Asian diaspora, what meaning is so various. We come from so many alternative locations. However you talked about two issues there, the stigma, this concept of the continued stigma. You talked about this concept of this collective id, that someway there’s this notion that the collective is extra essential than the person. That may be a cultural echo that continues. Maneet, what are a few of the different issues that you simply’re seeing? Why do of us within the South Asian communities are likely to battle quietly? This concept of not accessing the assistance?
MC: The stigma is big. I believe with stigma it’s the guilt. Guilt and disgrace are big. I believe it’s with anybody who struggles with psychological well being. However if you don’t have that well being promotion, that preventative lens, that psychological well being dialogue taking place — it takes years to interrupt down stigma. All of us, I’m positive all of us, anybody listening, all of us have self-stigma to psychological well being. If tomorrow we’re emotionally challenged, we’re going to marvel: What’s flawed with me? Why is that this taking place to me? So add on a layer of not realizing what psychological well being is. Nobody’s ever having the dialog round you within the cultural method, the linguistic method so that you can problem that. You perpetually stay caught there. After which comes that time. Perhaps in the future you are taking a leap of religion and also you go to the health-care system. And as a mental-health skilled, it’s so damaged and so difficult, you wouldn’t even know the place to go, what to do. So what you see right here in Brampton, regionally, is issues are unaddressed. They’re shoved underneath the rug. You find yourself in ER, possible, since you don’t know the system. What’s going to occur is you find yourself having a panic assault. You solely went to the hospital since you assume it’s a coronary heart assault. If you happen to knew it was a panic assault, you in all probability wouldn’t go since you’re prefer it’s psychological well being. I bought to maintain this hidden. I can’t inform anybody.
VS: However you then really feel it in your chest —
MC: You bodily begin feeling one thing is flawed with you now. It’s like, OK, it’s OK for me to go get assist. However then loads of these visits are left like that. You’ve got a go to, you might have a follow-up and also you by no means observe up once more. That’s one instance. The opposite instance is you would possibly go to a service supplier, attempt to search assist and so they don’t acknowledge, admire, worth, your cultural expertise, your loved ones dynamics. And you’re perpetually turned off from your complete expertise and also you don’t need to return.
VS: You talked about household, Maneet. I do know that you simply’ve spoken publicly about your dad’s battle with psychological well being. I’m questioning how that impacted you by way of your work and the place you ended up.
MC: Yeah, my dad struggled with despair, which began via grief. He misplaced his father. He misplaced his brother. And I believe grief consumed him. And I believe that’s the driving issue alongside, I’m positive with household historical past, in all probability loads of household historical past that he wasn’t even conscious of as a result of nobody talks about psychological well being within the residence, the immigrant expertise, simply milestones. However I believe grief is the most important factor for my father. And I believe all of this as an expert and as a human being when it actually struck me was after I misplaced my dad on the finish of 2018 as a result of I believe that have was like, oh my God. I believe if you’re in it and also you undergo it. My total notion — for those who had been to have this dialog with me in 2017, I’d in all probability have a really completely different perspective than I do at this time as a result of I used to be like, oh, my God, grief can utterly destroy you, destroy your psychological well being. And a few of us bounce again. A few of us are damaged and simply keep it up and others utterly lose their method.
VS: I’m so sorry in your loss.
VS: Satwinder, I do know that you’ve completed loads of work by way of the completely different generations and do completely different generations view and take care of psychological well being otherwise? Is that what you’ve observed?
SB: Sure, completely. As I stated, the household is the cornerstone of our communities. And I give it actual credit score for, one, holding issues when issues go flawed, but in addition falling aside when issues go flawed. So I need to say that generationally as a result of we stay in multigenerational properties, there’s no empirical proof of how many individuals stay in multigenerational properties. What we sort of know, it may be half and half, let’s say, as a guess estimate that half the individuals stay in multigenerational properties and half stay by themselves in nuclear household methods. So I believe residing inside multigenerational properties is each a assist and it’s additionally a little bit of a adverse as a result of I hear professionals saying on a regular basis in B.C. that South Asian Canadians don’t want the sort of assist from psychological well being companies as a result of they’ve household at residence. Their household is ready to assist them. However I don’t assume they perceive that not all households are outfitted or have the information to actually do the work and so they can do extra harm than hurt. Whereas possibly if there have been a nuclear household and so they didn’t have the assist, they’d must look someplace else. And others could step in and so they could have to indicate via their evaluation that the professionals do across the assist you want, that they don’t have anybody and maybe they’d get the companies. So I maintain telling households to let individuals know that they’re working. They’re not residence, taking care of psychological well being and that they do want the assist. However I believe it goes past the understanding. It needs to be a requirement from us as South Asians to say to companies that 25 per cent of the inhabitants in Abbotsford is South Asian. I need to see 25 per cent of your companies reflective of that. I need to see 25 per cent of your employees having that cross-cultural competency, not simply early information of cultural competency, however actually superior expertise, well-developed expertise. Rent individuals who have gone via universities and had these varieties of educations. Why in our social work program or nursing program can we not have the cross-cultural, contemplating that the individuals that may graduate are going to work in these communities? And we are able to’t sadly all the time put the onus on the household to return ahead and search for companies. I’d say to you, as Maneet has talked concerning the immigrant expertise, immigrants typically are very passive. They arrive to Canada as a developed nation and see the sweetness, the milk and honey that they see. Nevertheless, they see that with rose-coloured glasses as a result of it’s not milk and honey. They see it that method initially, and so they sort of settle for that they need to take a second-tier place to calls for. They shouldn’t go into the college and inform the instructor, I need this or go to a physician and say I need this, as a result of they see the immigrant place as a secondary place. They haven’t been accepted as full Canadians are rights and obligations, and it’s a really troublesome dance that they’re doing as a result of they’re attempting to uphold their cultural traditions, which they don’t need to let go but, they’re frozen in time for a time period. After which on the identical time, they’re attempting to adapt and culturalize to Canadian society. And also you talked about these, , the environmental acclimatization that individuals must undergo. I’ve to inform you, that’s a really complicated course of. And we are able to’t count on individuals to leap off a aircraft and get acclimatized to Canada and determine how issues work and make the calls for that they want. As , all of us know we have now to be our personal advocates for well being care, sadly. However immigrants don’t all the time have the capability and the wherewithal to do this. So multigenerational properties present the assist to people who find themselves maybe mentally sick as a result of there’s somebody within the residence, somebody to assist, and so on., and so on. However it’s not the optimum assist system. There must be companies hooked up to that.
VS: It sounds such as you’re saying not simply do — I’m simply going to make use of the “we” for a minute as a result of I’m a part of this group, too. Nevertheless it sounds such as you’re saying not solely can we not have the capability, however we don’t really feel like we have now the best.
SB: Sure. That’s why the thought of Soch — I really like the phrase soch as a result of soch is far past simply thought it’s a significant engagement by way of our beliefs, our values, what we predict, how we predict, why we predict it’s a a lot larger phrase than its precise small which means.
VS: So for anyone who doesn’t know soch, let’s give a definition of soch, the phrase.
MC: I believe Satwinder did a tremendous job, however like definition-wise, soch means to assume or a thought and for us soch is larger than that. It’s a phrase that we’ve been utilizing to actually delve into the dialog about psychological well being, emotional wellness, your pondering, your feelings. And it comes throughout rather well if you’re having the dialog between generations. I can have the dialog with my grandma, elders in my household and so they’re like, what sort of work do you do? I’m like, I work in psychological well being. I take into consideration the thoughts. Take into consideration your soch, your thoughts and all of the issues you concentrate on. And that’s the stuff, the difficult bits, and the joyful bits. How can we handle that and maintain that at a stability. It’s a brief phrase, but it surely has a really massive which means. It was identical to a random brainstorm at a Starbucks with me, Jasmeet and Harman, one other founding member of Soch. And we wrote it down. After which we began asking everybody on the espresso store, non-South Asian individuals. Can they pronounce this? Trigger you need to decide a reputation that everybody can say.
SB: I additionally assume, Vinita, soch has inside it — is imbued with a way of future thought. Soch is deeper than the second. Soch is actually about reflection and introspection. It’s a couple of second of pondering and it may take you ahead. I’m actually a proponent of progressive pondering of inching ahead. Regression is simply not my cup of tea. And I’m sorry what’s taking place in Afghanistan at this time. We’re all simply heartbroken as a result of the progress is so onerous fought and particularly of people who find themselves susceptible. Ladies, kids, persons are in abusive conditions. People who find themselves affected by psychological well being or different incapacities. Soch is imbued with this concept that you could overcome your shortcomings, that you could go ahead and make one thing of it.
VS: We discuss going ahead somewhat bit and also you talked about Afghanistan and we talked about generational variations somewhat bit, however we haven’t actually touched on gender but. The notions of Asian masculinity, the thought of patriarchy and gender-based violence, these are all wrapped up collectively. What position does gender play, Satwinder, in all of these items that we’re speaking about?
SB: I all the time really feel gender is a fluid time period and that it’s perpetually being modified and challenged and manipulated. However historically, as , gender is seen as a binary and that there’s this or that, and we’re nowhere in South Asian Canadian communities actually prepared to handle all of the variations between our genders. So consequently, I believe the boundary of gender actually defines who we’re from once we are born to once we die. The rituals, the traditions of ideas, the concepts, the beliefs, the expectations of roles and obligations are sort of half and parcel of every little thing that we’re socialized to do and to interrupt these norms — each time I see somebody who’s damaged that norm, I’m in awe of that human to say that they’ve this braveness and this power of conviction to go in opposition to the grain. However in South Asian Canadian communities, partly as a result of we, as all different communities on the planet, are principally patriarchal, we’re in a little bit of a entice. And to open that entice is one thing not everybody is ready to do.
VS: I’m additionally speaking about simply the thought of the patriarchy, this concept of how this overwhelming patriarchy impacts the psychological well being of those communities and people impacted by that. I see Maneet you’re nodding your head.
MC: Yeah. The place we’re caught proper now within the conventional sense within the patriarchy is that girls actually battle with their psychological well being. And that’s as a result of you may have lack of energy, lack of voice, lack of autonomy inside your house. There’s loads of gender-based roles that play into your psychological well being and your wellness. You see caregiver roles are placed on girls and ladies have family roles. They’re additionally working, they need their independence. They need equality outdoors. However then they’re increasing themselves and stretching themselves out skinny with caregiving. In order that performs an enormous position on girls. After which we take a look at males within the conventional sense, on how they’ve been socialized to take care of their psychological well being and their challenges. We take a look at patterns of not speaking about your feelings. Soch has been internet hosting a South Asian Males’s Discussion board, which we truly began with the gorgeous work of remedy, which is the South Asian Psychological Well being Initiative within the U.Ok. So the South Asian Males’s Discussion board we created for South Asian males to return collectively, have a secure area with those who have lived expertise, those that are skilled, to speak about issues which can be very difficult for males to speak about. We don’t give permission to males to speak about their feelings. “Be a person, don’t cry. You may deal with it.” These pressures additionally don’t permit for his or her psychological well being and the way in which they navigate to evolve. So what do they do? They drink, they get offended, there are outbursts which can be taking place at residence as a result of that’s the cycle they’ve seen earlier than them. And that’s what’s repeating and it’s not breaking. So that also exists. It’s very heavy. It’s being handed all the way down to our technology, to our youthful technology, as a result of that could be a sample they’re seeing at residence.
VS: I do know that you simply each have seen the information, the form of media experiences about younger South Asian males being impacted in a specific method and plenty of of them turning to gangs. And I’m questioning what’s taking place there.
SB: Yeah, it’s unlucky that B.C. has seen over the past, I’d say, 30 years, an actual decline in wellness of younger South Asian males, a sure group of South Asian males. Now, don’t overlook, they’re a minority. They’re a small quantity. They don’t outline South Asian Canadian males. Usually, most of them are performing at very excessive ranges. They’re succeeding. They’re doing nicely. However there’s a small group of males which can be susceptible and Maneet has shed some mild on why they’re susceptible. However I believe one of many issues that’s occurred is that as researchers and students, as practitioners, we actually haven’t spent the time understanding males’s burdens and understanding males’s roles. And whereas we spend loads of time speaking concerning the shifting position of ladies from being caregivers, but in addition being breadwinners, we haven’t actually spent the time to grasp the burden that males carry typically. If I take a look at the literature, there’s little or no on South Asian males. There’s a lot of South Asian girls, however little or no on males. And we’re nowhere close to understanding the challenges that younger males face. And we even have to grasp the position of moms and dads and the way they’re elevating these younger males, as a result of they’re additionally elevating them with expectations of the previous as in the event that they’re going to hold the burdens of household and breadwinning and all the time being there for everybody and taking care of — that may be shared. It’s so significantly better if it’s shared between sisters and brothers. I’ve to inform you that males don’t perceive their very own privilege. They really get up within the morning with out inspecting it. So there are challenges.
VS: If I might offer you a magic powder, magic mud, the place would you begin spreading that mud? What must occur to enhance the state of affairs? I’ll begin with you, Maneet.
MC: I believe by way of Satwinder shared, we’re sort of second tier by way of loads of our group not pondering that they deserve it or it’s their proper. As a result of I believe coming to Canada was like a ticket, prefer it was you received the lottery. Magic mud could be that South Asian psychological well being, culturally, linguistically applicable psychological well being companies and helps. It’s everybody’s proper. It’s there. It’s not one thing that we’re preventing for. Now we have to advocate for. Now we have to take a seat on the desk and beg for funding for, that stuff is simply there. That’s the place I’d begin. The opposite factor I’d begin with is at colleges. Colleges ought to have psychological well being from the very starting. Why are we not speaking about this? And it must be necessary for them to have psychological well being programs, psychological well being coaching and psychological well being within the curriculum. We have to begin younger. Psychological well being first assist must be necessary. I believe that employees must be on the market.
VS: Did you say psychological well being first assist?
MC: Yeah, psychological well being first assist. In order a primary assist for CPR and saving lives, there may be psychological well being first assist for realizing your foundational psychological well being. However clearly having that in several languages for various cultures. Psychological well being coaching was not necessary throughout my nursing schooling. And I’m baffled about the truth that you’re supporting somebody who may be at finish of life or they’re terminally sick or that they had this horrific accident occur to them. However you haven’t any psychological well being coaching underneath your belt to assist them throughout this transition and this horrible expertise. I can proceed to in all probability go on. However I believe proper now, by way of the larger image, I actually really feel like in case you have that language from as quickly as you’re born and also you come into the world and also you’re given the permission that you’ve in thoughts, and all of us have a thoughts and we have now feelings, and that’s the human expertise. That’s the fantastic thing about it. And please expertise it to your fullest. And for those who’re struggling, attain out for assist. Simply attain out. Don’t undergo in silence like that’s the imaginative and prescient of the group that I sit up for seeing sooner or later in my life.
VS: Wonderful. Thanks for that. And Satwinder I’m going to provide the identical mud, the identical magic mud.
SB: You’re so beneficiant, I thanks for that. I hope we are able to make some affect. I suppose I’ve two areas that I believe actually need consideration. One is we actually want a really sturdy overhaul of the schooling system to handle psychological well being. And we want it in any respect ranges, as Maneet has stated. And the second piece is actually for policy-makers. If I had magic mud, I want to see at each coverage desk that there be culturally delicate and applicable companies being designed for each single factor that we do. Canada speaks about being a multicultural group, however does it act it out? Does it, in every little thing that we do, or can we deal with multiculturalism? Will we deal with the concept that so many cultures stay underneath one roof, in a single nation, affected by these insurance policies? I’m sorry, the insurance policies are nonetheless very Eurocentric. They’re colonial pushed. They don’t even deal with Indigenous points, not to mention migrant points. So the magic mud, it may be great. It’s simply not — I’m not saying it’s inconceivable, but it surely wants a complete shift in mindset, a complete shift in concept making, a complete shift in paradigms of how we operate as Canadians. And all of us want to do this. It could’t be a first-rate minister and his cupboard who does that, though we put them there. And as soon as we put them there, let’s maintain them accountable.
VS: Guys, I felt that bodily, despite the fact that we’re simply digital. That was very highly effective and really lovely. Thanks each a lot for the time that you simply’ve given at this time. I actually, actually admire it.
SB: Properly, thanks for creating this platform and thanks for permitting us to share our ideas. And Maneet, beautiful to satisfy you.
MC: Thanks Satwinder and thanks, Vinita. Actually, I believe this dialog, it helps for myself to sort of sit again and mirror on why I’m right here, why are we doing this and what work can we nonetheless must do. We deserve this. We demand this and we want a greater tomorrow, particularly with regards to psychological well being for South Asians.
SB: And Vinita I really like that your podcast known as Don’t Name Me Resilient, as a result of I believe in that concept of resilience comes this concept of there, there, , condescending, patronizing concepts of, , you need to be capable to overcome this. Some issues we are able to’t overcome. We’d like assist to beat these. However this concept that immigrants will all the time be resilient, they’ll take racism, they’ll take assault, they’ll take every kind of discrimination and stereotyping, and they need to simply bounce again. I believe that’s a very unfair characterisation of what we are able to and what we’re capable of accomplish. I need to be resilient, in fact I do, however not at the price of anyone else’s means to then simply shove me down and count on me to bounce again.
VS: Thanks a lot. Thanks each a lot. I actually admire it.
That’s it for this episode of Don’t Name Me Resilient. I’d love to listen to what you’re pondering after that dialog. I’m on Twitter @writeVinita. And don’t overlook to tag our producers @conversationca. Use the hashtag #DontCallMeResilient. Don’t Name Me Resilient is a manufacturing of The Dialog Canada. It was made attainable by a grant for journalism innovation from the Social Sciences and Humanities Analysis Council of Canada. The sequence is produced and hosted by me Vinita Srivastava. Our producer is Susana Ferriera, our affiliate producer is Ibrahim Daair. And particular due to our intern Vaishnavi Dandeker for her assistance on this episode. Reza Dahya is our extremely affected person sound producer and our fabulous consulting producer is Jennifer Moroz. Lisa Varano leads viewers growth for The Dialog Canada and Scott White is our CEO. And for those who’re questioning who wrote and carried out the music we use on the pod, that’s the wonderful Zaki Ibrahim. The observe known as One thing within the Water. Thanks for listening, everybody, and hope you be part of us once more. Till then, I’m Vinita. And please, don’t name me resilient.